“You have to work against people assuming they know how this goes” - Danielle Bayard Jackson, Author of Fighting for Our Friendships - How Stories Happen #7
How do we compress our lifetime into their runtime? When we’re asked to explain our backgrounds and bios, we need a structure, some practice, and a few anecdotes at the ready. Because our story has to pull triple-duty: clarify who we are, build credibility, and teach whatever it is we’re there to teach.
In this episode, author, PR agency founder, and friendship expert Danielle Bayard Jackson reveals the simple way she responds to that simple question: “How’d you get here?” Together, we break it apart into component pieces and re-build certain aspects, spotting ways to customize the story to the specific audiences Danielle speaks to as a speaker and service provider.
You’ll walk away with a new framework for crafting your own gripping answer to the personal background question (“MBAS” – Mission, Background, Anecdote, Summary), and you’ll get a glimpse into the craft of two communicators reaching geeky levels of appreciation for what it takes to resonate with our words.
Danielle is the author of the new book, Fighting for Our Friendships: The Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships.
Find the Show in Your Favorite App:
Episode Resources:
⚫ Follow Danielle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellebayardjackson/
⚫ Follow Danielle on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thefriendshipexpert
⚫ Visit Danielle’s website: https://www.daniellebayardjackson.com/
🔵 Subscribe to Jay’s newsletter: https://jayacunzo.com/
🔵 Join the Creator Kitchen membership for storytellers: https://creatorkitchen.com/
🔵 Follow Jay on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayacunzo/
🔵 Follow Jay on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jacunzo/
🟢 Created in partnership with Share Your Genius: https://shareyourgenius.com/
🟢 Cover art designed by Blake Ink: https://www.blakeink.com/
🟢 Find and support our sponsors: https://jayacunzo.com/sponsors
Full Transcript
(This was created with AI and may contain some errors)
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:00:00]:
My name is Danielle Bayard Jackson, and I am a friendship coach and educator.
Jay Acunzo [00:00:05]:
One of the things that I kind of wish I could do a speaking tour, which I know you're embarking on for your book of undergrads of young professionals, and say to those people, is the importance of a creative practice, like writing a newsletter every week or whatever it is you create, just sticking to a deadline and shipping things on the regular to persist, no other reason than to practice. I'm curious if you have something you would define as your own creative practice, whether it's privately, in a journal, or publicly, what are you routinely creating that keeps you sharp and helps you improve your thinking?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:00:40]:
Oh, that's so good. And I am really asked that. I think for me, it would be creating videos on social media. So I am a TikTok, girly, but I think that playing with different hooks and, you know, when I see a certain trend emerge or a new research study drops, and it's my job to make that accessible for people. What are fun ways I can engage them? How can I make this a part of a story? How can I show up in a certain way? So I feel like social media is a space where I feel comfortable playing and experimenting, and so that's what kind of keeps me fresh and on my toes.
Jay Acunzo [00:01:16]:
It does seem to me like people misconstrue social media as just distribution, just marketing. And I think the more you treat it, especially when you're in the business of big ideas and shifting people's perspectives and expertise in a way that stands out and differentiates you as the expert, I think we should be treating it like a comedian treats small comedy clubs. Right? Like you have unproven material, or like you said, it's kind of like I need to figure out my reaction or comment on this thing, or I'm just trying to stay sharp and figure and play with. You mentioned hooks, and there's just myriad things you can play with. But to me, that's, like, the metaphor I always come back to. I'm, like, really jealous of comics, actually. Cause they get small comedy clubs. I know you're going on a tour in support of your book, and I'm like, that's great.
Jay Acunzo [00:01:59]:
At the last two or three of those stops, you're gonna be so freaking sharp, having done the tour that I think we just need to create our own little version of that for ourselves. I don't know if that resonates with you at all.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:02:11]:
Oh, 100%. And for me, social media, I mean, I always joke that it's my real time focus group because I do engage with the comments, but it's not, you know, according to the whole, you should engage to increase engagement. No, I'm looking at that almost from a data standpoint, and I have literally, like, gone to my whiteboard before and categorized the comments that I receive, especially on viral videos, and we'll segment that out and see. Oh, my gosh. 60% of the people who responded said this. That's what we need to focus on, or that chapter of the book needs to be expanded. You know, so that has given me real time data on what people are looking for. It allows me to engage with them.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:02:50]:
So to your point about the comedians testing new material, I do feel like that's kind of my playground to do that.
Jay Acunzo [00:02:57]:
It's so funny you mentioned that, like, the conversations and the feedback loop with others. I feel like there was a point in one of my previous podcasts where I decided, well, I don't really know who's listening, so I'll just have five calls a month with listeners. I'll offer it to them. Do 15 minutes Q and a. Like, I'm going to ask them questions to learn about them. 15 minutes. Whatever you want. It's your time.
Jay Acunzo [00:03:17]:
I can help you with something. We can catch up, whatever. And so I got some people that foolishly, let's say, foolishly took me up on that offer because I was like, why the hell you don't want to talk to me? But they did. And I said to them, what did you arrive to my overall platform? So my newsletter, my podcast, et cetera, wanting to have happen. Well, what are you hoping is different? Like, if you consume a bunch of my work, and they said words that I was not using anywhere. They said words like, I mentioned differentiation before or stand out. Those are not words I was using. I was using words like resonance and storytelling and things I still say, but I wasn't able to meet them where they were actually at so that I could show them what I thought they needed because they came in with a want.
Jay Acunzo [00:04:01]:
And I was thinking, well, this is what they need over here. And as someone who you write books, you give speeches, I feel like that's the business we're in as storytellers, where people, we have to meet people where they're at, using the language they use to then march them every step along the way. And I don't know about you, but in my career, I'm like, I'm already at letter Z, so I'm prone to being like, ab, lmnop, XYZ. And it's so easy to lose people that way.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:04:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's one thing for me to bring the research that I share and things like that, but it's another to present it in a way that makes people excited, that makes them curious, that makes them feel seen, and that brings them along for the journey. You know, when I was promoting my book, I turned it into a series, and we were doing the whole, like, this is me trying to figure out how to promote this book, but we were all doing it together, and so it keeps me fresh for sure. Being on the digital landscape in that way has been very helpful.
Jay Acunzo [00:04:54]:
Is there anything you know now about how to package and present and tell the story of research that you didn't when you were starting out? Cause I feel like that's a big issue where, like, an expert knows something meaningful for others to know, like what they know matters, but what they say or how they're saying it might not make that clear. And I think that shows up very specifically oftentimes when people are sitting on mounds of data. I know many people that I've worked with who are awesome when you sit down for 2 hours with them at ensuring you understand why the data matters. But if given 60 seconds, if given five minutes, it's really hard. They just sort of go, data point, data point, data point. And I'm informed, but maybe I'm not feeling anything. So I'm wondering, have you evolved how you package and present your research over time?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:05:41]:
Yeah. One thing that's been a challenge, but I'll say something I have to maintain a certain conscious over is the things that sometimes excite you about your story. What you have to share aren't necessarily the things that excite your audience. Now, I do think that it's a good starting point because if I'm feeling naturally energized by something, it's good because that's likely going to carry over into the presentation. But leading with the aspects I think are exciting, or getting into the weeds on something that a person just wants to know. How does this apply to today right now? How is this relevant to the trends everyone's talking about right now? Because I want to receive it in that context. I want immediate value. Sometimes the parts that, for me, are super exciting, there's not much overlap for the person I'm talking to.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:06:27]:
And so it does challenge you to pause a beat and think, okay, I want to carry the energy from what's naturally stirring me up, but also, how do I draw them in by extracting the parts of it that get them energized. And that's always kind of a dance that you have to continually do.
Jay Acunzo [00:06:41]:
Is there any recent example that comes to mind of that?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:06:45]:
I just know that. Okay, so sometimes when I do look at a new study on women's and connection and conflict, because that's my specialty, is women's cooperation and communication. I really, really like learning about how the study was carried out. I think that's interesting. So I like to look at the details of, okay, so they had these two groups, and they blindfolded this group. And then, you know, now some groups are like, oh, that's interesting. But depending on where I'm sharing the message, some people don't. They're not as excited, and they just want to know the outcome and how this outcome, like, what are the implications of it? So if I find that, you know, oh, so the research tells us that, you know, women's friendships are deeper than men's friendships, but they're more fragile.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:07:29]:
You know, that's a key takeaway. And then what are the implications of that? What does that mean for my life? They're interested in that and less about, like, let me share. All these studies, I think are so cool. So, again, there's definitely some audience there, but when I'm kind of. When I adapt it a little bit, I find that people respond differently.
Jay Acunzo [00:07:45]:
Are you also hunting for not just the stories that you can tell around the research you do or the trends you spot, but almost like the case study type story or the signature story? If you're asked, what's an example of a friendship that held true to this? Do you have that? Okay, here's the perfect example of these two people started out where you, the audience started out, and let's go on a journey of how they transformed. Are you able to access or find or cultivate those kinds of stories? And the reason I ask just to lay my cards on the table, is I look at that as a professional storyteller. I look at that as daunting. Cause the stories I tell involved usually one protagonist. It's Mike Brown, the founder of Death Wish Coffee, the world's strongest coffee. It's me. I experienced something or did something. It's one person going on a journey that the audience is going on now.
Jay Acunzo [00:08:34]:
I don't need to then go get a second person and sort of, like, get both sides and validate it. And it's not quite as personal. Right. It's building a business or creating a podcast or telling stories it's not telling me about your friendship, which can be vulnerable. So I'm just curious, is that a type of story that you've sort of cracked the code on or attempted to, of how you find and cultivate those stories?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:08:54]:
Yeah. So working with clients kind of helps me to have many stories to choose from, kind of at the ready. But I will be transparent and tell you it's something I have to be very conscious of when I am developing some kind of presentation because I'm so excited about what the research says or this stat that's interesting or this strategy that's cool. I have to slow down and remind myself, okay, what's a great story that captures the point I'm trying to make, because it's not the first thing that comes to mind for me, but I know. I mean, I see it in the room when I do share that story, and you see people with baited breath waiting to hear what happened at the end, and then we all kind of, oh, you know, at the end of, like, how's this turning out? So I see the real time effects of capturing the essence of my message through a story. But sometimes I have to remind myself to put a face with the point I'm trying to make, because it's not the first thing that comes to mind for me, but I 100% see the impact once I do.
Jay Acunzo [00:09:53]:
Yeah. What do you think is going on in people's minds when you present that story? Right. Like, what is that doing in service to the audience?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:09:58]:
Oh, I think it. First of all, I think it makes them enjoy the experience of meeting up there more. And I think it 100% helps to glue everything I've said to their brain for a longer period of time, because I can pack it with stuff I think is interesting or. Or whatever it is. But as soon as I tell you about, you know, Tasha, who's a middle aged teacher, and she was struggling on the first day of school to find teachers to sit within the teacher lounge just like her students were in the cafeteria right next door. You know, that I feel that I resonate with that, and I'm gonna remember that I can see it, and so I definitely realize the impact, but it's something for me. I have to remind myself constantly to do so.
Jay Acunzo [00:10:39]:
This is an outsider question, not being an expert in friendships as you are. So if you are an expert and an educator on friendship, and then you write a book about friendships and your own friends, know that you're an expert and educator on friendships and now have a book out on friendships, does that at all affect your friendships?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:10:58]:
Yes. I'm like, but I changed the name here and I changed the details here. So that has gotten sticky before where I've definitely had a friend like, oh, is that about me? I'm like, no. So it's definitely been tricky, but it also helps to keep me accountable because whenever I am not taking my own advice, I've definitely had friends lovingly say to me, okay, now, coach. Okay, now. So they kind of, like, razz me a little bit, but it helps to keep me accountable. So it's definitely been interesting in that way.
Jay Acunzo [00:11:28]:
You get any side eye, like, is this going to be in your next book or next podcast episode? Yeah. I don't think my family or friends have quite recognized that basically everything I experience in my life is now potentially material. But I think they're close around the corner. Is everybody recoiling when I walk in a room being like, I don't want to be in his next email?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:11:46]:
Totally.
Jay Acunzo [00:11:47]:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We're gonna dissect your story in a second. I loved the way you proposed telling this story. I'll back up a second. Cause I don't want to critique my fellow podcasters and fellow interviewers too much, but at the same time, like, I kind of do because we asked this question way too much, which is like, and this is in the media everywhere, not just podcasting. Danielle, so you identify as a friendship coach and a friendship expert. How did you get here? How'd you come at that? And I remember the first time I showed up on a podcast being asked, like, so you're in this job title, Jay.
Jay Acunzo [00:12:29]:
How did you get there? And I was so ill prepared to answer it, but now it's like I can sense myself kind of blacking out and forcing myself to get through the answer because I just kind of feel like, could you have just set that up ahead of this? Like, is that really the best use of our runtime? But it does feel like, I don't know, the vegetable we have to sort of stomach if we're going to be interviewed a lot. But talk to me about your relationship with that very common question, which is basically like, tell me about yourself, Danielle.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:13:03]:
Totally. Yeah. I know that most shows are gonna start with that, so I've got it down to a science how to tell that and try to.
Jay Acunzo [00:13:10]:
You gotta. There's no way around. You have to.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:13:13]:
And, you know, I also have, like, a small boutique pr agency, and we talk about that, about how to maximize this moment, because you are going to get that question and what to highlight and what to leave out. Cause it's not exciting or relevant. So I appreciate that question in terms of setting a foundation for the audience, in terms of helping to establish credibility upfront so they're more likely to listen to what I'm saying. So I understand the function of that question, and it certainly helps me to have a certain, I don't know, confidence starting because the first question is easy peasy. But, yeah, it's definitely something that I can recite if I wanted to, like a robot, you know? I don't, but I could.
Jay Acunzo [00:13:54]:
Right, right. It does feel like. And I imagine you're experiencing this promoting your book right now. You're getting that question. And also probably a lot of more topic specific questions, too. Right? Are you sensing that already, as you talk about the book? Are there, like, you know, two or three other very common questions that come along with this topic that you tend to get? If so, like, could you. Could you name them already? How common are they?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:14:16]:
Yeah. So, you know, I specialize in what the research says around women's connection, conflict and cooperation. So one thing I'm commonly asked after being asked, so you're a friendship coach. How did you get into this? Is also, you know, so what are the issues people are bringing to you? Like, they wanna know, what's the top three issues? What are the friendship issues? What are they saying to you? I also received, you know, so how do you make friends? How do you address a friendship conflict? What are some signs that it's toxic? You know, so it is the same, how do I make em? When do I break up with them? What are red flags I can spot to know when to end them are like. Are common things I'm hearing and differences between men and women's friendships people are naturally curious about. So I kind of anticipate the same kind of five questions, which is fine, because I know that means it's top of mind for listeners or viewers, but I am always very excited when someone comes with fresh questions. I'm very excited when those moments happen.
Jay Acunzo [00:15:13]:
Yes, this is a little bit of an odd question, but I have heard this from other people who are themselves interviewing other authors. What constitutes a fresh question? Because I actually have heard the counter, which is like, well, these authors are out there trying to promote their book, and you want to stay close to the material. And I have one book out there, and I'm like, well, I remember five or six interviews in. I was already dreading the next one, which is insane to say because I remember when nobody cared about my work and to be interviewed about my work is an honor and still is, like, gobsmacked that anybody cares. But at the same time, I was like, could we? I want to go deeper, you know, or I want to take it in a different, packed a different direction or give me something where, like, I can kind of lean forward instead of lean back. And I know you are balancing the two worlds of, like, the author out there promoting the book and the head of a PR firm that coaches others as to how to show up. What makes a good, different, original type of question in your mind that you wish you got more of?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:16:11]:
Yeah. There are two things that have made it feel fresh to me. The first is whenever they're asking questions and there's some kind of timeliness factor. So it wouldn't have been possible for somebody to ask me that same question a month ago. So whether they're pointing to a certain headline, current event, or trend on social, that makes it feel fresh because it feels very now. So I tend to like that. Or when the person who's cracking these questions is almost creating some kind of, like, where they're synthesizing information, like they're making connections between my book and another popular book or my podcast and another popular. So kind of synthesizing information in some fresh way, that's always interesting to me.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:16:55]:
And finally, whenever they ask me questions about myself, which might sound self centered, but I like to throw in a blazer and hide behind the data. So it throws me off. It catches me off guard when they say, now in your friendships, you know, have you recently experienced that throws me off because I'm like, oh, no, no, no. Let's just, let's just focus on the data, you know? But I like it because I understand that it does humanize things, and I know people like asking because I don't talk about myself, so they're just curious. But those three things tend to making you perk up a little bit because it's something new and exciting.
Jay Acunzo [00:17:28]:
So let's hear something that is not that new and exciting for you. I'll tee you up to actually share the story, however you will today by asking you a similar question that you get asked often. And you mentioned after sharing that you wanted to tell this story today that it's the story you tell all the freaking time. So, dear listener, with apologies to our wonderful guest, Danielle. I'm going to make her tell it one more time, but this hopefully will have a new color to it. So, Danielle, it says here you are a friendship. I'm holding nothing for people who can't see the video. It says here that you're a friendship educator and expert.
Jay Acunzo [00:18:04]:
How did you get into this line of work anyway?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:18:07]:
Okay, so this is how I would answer that. Maintaining energy. Right? Like I've heard it for the first time.
Jay Acunzo [00:18:11]:
Yeah, gotta bring it up. Yeah, you can't see the seams. Don't let the listener know that there's seams going on here where you or I are part of a production. Nope, this is me. I'm now the new host of, I don't know, good Morning America, the Today shows, yes, you name it. A special guest, Danielle Jackson. We've been dying to have you on the show. By the way, what would you say to our millions of viewers at home if I ask you, how'd you get into this?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:18:34]:
Yeah, well, that's a great question. And, you know, I always joke that it definitely wasn't on my vision board when I was ten to become a friendship expert, but I actually started my career as a high school english teacher. So I was working with 17 and 18 year old. And between classes and after school, the number one thing they wanted to talk about was their friendship issues, especially the girls. And I had a front row seat to the ways that issues of connection and belonging were directly impacting everything else. Their mood, academic performance, and even whether or not they came to school. And then when I left the classroom after about six years and became academic chair, I was then getting into public relations. And so I made the foolish mistake of thinking, well, now I'm working with adult women.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:19:22]:
I'm leaving that teenage drama behind. I found out quickly enough I was wrong, but I was surprised to learn that working with these high achieving, extroverted, successful women behind the scenes, privately, they were struggling with friendships, too, but they weren't going to lead with that. Right? And so I went home one day, I searched friendship books. And at the time, there was very little that came up in the search results. And of those few search results, most of them were for children. And that's when I had a moment of, this is what we think of friendship, that surely a child would need help, but adults should have it figured out. And so now for the last six years, I've been leveraging my background in education to study what the research has to say about women's conflict and connection. And so far, it has been a really fun ride.
Jay Acunzo [00:20:14]:
So we're just, we're just shaking off the routine nature of that one. We're just, we're back in the land of the living. Your brain is back online. Thank you for sharing that. I. Do you remember how that's evolved? Like, was there a first stab of it that sounded different, or is it something that, you know, you're so used to this by now that it came out pretty clean the first time?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:20:32]:
Yeah, I think. I think after the first couple times when this was all new to me, I learned really quickly, like, oh, they're going to keep asking that. And I knew that I have such varied backgrounds that I'm really only telling a piece of it, but I'm only hitting the highlights that they're probably going to care about and that are relevant to what we're talking about today. You don't need to know that I was waitressing tables over the summer while I was a teacher to make ends meet. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not relevant to the story. So once I learned, oh, this is going to be a recurring question, figuring out which aspects of my story to highlight, how to chronologically tell how I got here, and to pull the pieces of my history that make sense to where I am now. And then, you know, wash, rinse, repeat.
Jay Acunzo [00:21:12]:
One of the things I have to shout out and appreciate is the first thing, first reply. And it wasn't the draft you sent me ahead of time, too, which is you acknowledge that somebody might be thinking, that's a little different, right? Maybe even a little weird to say you're a friendship expert or friendship coach or author about friendship, right? And so, you know, you say, it wasn't on my vision board when I was a kid, which I just think is such a smart way to, like, give a wink and a nod to a potential either objection or skepticism or just, you know, curiosity that, oh, that's not, you know, it's not the things you're taught as a student, lawyer, doctor, teacher, et cetera, even though, you know, obviously you talk about being a teacher. So I just want to give a little tip of this, the cap to one storyteller to another. I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge it and in your own way, because you're not, like, it is a little weird, isn't it? And even that would endear you. But you're like, yeah, it wasn't on my vision board as a kid.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:22:06]:
Yeah, yeah. You know, I've literally had, you know, reporters do air quotes. Like, so you're a friendship coach, you know, and so I'm like, okay, I get it, you know, but instead of being insecure about it or defensive about it, just kind of like a, yeah, I hear ya. I know. Silly, silly me. You know, so that they feel like, oh, she gets it, and then we can move on. So I think it's been helpful so far.
Jay Acunzo [00:22:29]:
I do have a belief that when you're asked about yourself, which, again, is a common thing, even if you're not in the public eye, you might be asked in a job interview or over coffee or whatever, you sort of are immediately thrust into this decision where it's a fork in the road. You can take one or the other, but you can't take both. The story can be mainly about you or mainly about the thing you're there to say. And what I hear coming out of the business world, starting in marketing and working all my books, my speaking, all that stuff, business focused people there, they want to give you the greatest hits of their career, which usually devolves into the logos. Right. How fancy were the logos? Or another way of looking at it is essentially what they want for the audience, is for everybody to have scanned their LinkedIn right. Really quickly, and now you get it, and it just leads to this style of speaking, which I didn't catch at all from you, which I like. The joke sounds like reading a grocery list where you're just bored sounding, or you upspeak at the end, you know, like, first I worked here, and then that was, you know, moved on to here, and then I moved on to here, and it's like cream cheese and bagels, and then get some butter and, oh, don't forget the orange juice.
Jay Acunzo [00:23:36]:
Or the kids are on apple juice lately, so get some apple juice. And I'm like, this is the first thing you're going to share with somebody. Is that learned by you? Is it? Learn to take your own personal story and say, well, I'm actually going to make the story about me. The story about my idea, which the audience cares about, versus what most people's instant reaction is, is to just say, like, oh, you asked about me? Like, checklist, checklist, checklist, checklist.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:24:01]:
This is gonna sound really harsh, but I believe that the average person doesn't really care about you unless you are, like, some major celebrity. So now they want personal details because they want anything that they can have from you. You know, like, if I heard Beyonce was, like, sharing some behind the scenes mothering parenting tips, I'm like, oh, my God. Cause I don't normally hear about this woman who I have so much admiration for. So in my opinion, it's kind of tricky. Like, when we start with, you know, tell us about yourself or how you got into this? Because, to your point, I know some people see this. This is my time to shine and talk about myself. But I.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:24:37]:
I don't know. I don't. And I wonder what you think about this. But, like, I know that when I listen to podcasts, I tend to fast forward that part because I don't have much patience for it. And I almost feel like I would be curious to hear about it at the end, because now I care because I'm probably thinking, like, oh, my God, how do you know all this? We're like, oh, my gosh, how do you know I'm interested? So, again, obviously, I understand the function of it being at the beginning to set the scene. But I believe people don't care about me, especially on, like, a 20 minutes, 40 minutes interview they want to get to. How can this apply to my life? And so, I believe to take up time highlighting a person's details, I don't know. So I wonder how you feel about that.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:25:16]:
But I feel like people don't really care. Unless you're there to be a motivational speaker and talk about how you overcame personal adversity, then I get it. But I'm curious to know your thoughts on that.
Jay Acunzo [00:25:27]:
I was taught very early on, actually, episode one of this show featured a friend and a mentor who helped me understand the craft and the business of public speaking. His name is Andrew Davis. I think he's one of the best living business keynote speakers on Earth. And if there are planets with life also on those planets, and he taught me, you have to earn the right to talk about yourself. Like, in a speech, you have to earn the right to talk about yourself. And in a podcast, you haven't been given the chance to do the early work that a speech's early moments should do, which is meant to align with the audience. Acknowledge, hey, you have this goal, and you're coming at it this way, but you have some problems doing it that way. And here's a big change to consider.
Jay Acunzo [00:26:06]:
And here's maybe a story which is not mine, but somebody else doing it this new way, and now you're like, oh, I really am bought in. Not because you listed out a flashy background, but because you've gone on a mini journey with me, the audience, and you've shown me why you're credible instead of telling me you're credible. And then maybe somewhere in the middle moments of that speech, you go, I remember the first time that I realized this, or I learned this the hard way, and then you can go a little bit more in depth into the background or the anecdote specifically that illuminates your big idea for the speech. Right. But you earn the right. You earn your way there through the early moments of a speech. In an interview, it's the first thing out of the interviewer's mouth, possibly, you don't know, what are they gonna do in post to set me up here? Most interviewers don't go out of their way. There's actually, the listener will not have heard it.
Jay Acunzo [00:26:56]:
But partway through our interview, I actually broke and said, we'll take this out. But, Danielle, I need you to know I'm gonna talk about you before we start. So you don't need to feel the need to mention the book by its full name. Cause I will do that for you. Right. Most interviewers don't do that, and the only reason I do is because I've been on the receiving end of it and felt really awkward and wanted to deliver, but didn't know what it meant to deliver. So now you're not given the chance to earn credibility. You're not given the chance to add value immediately.
Jay Acunzo [00:27:22]:
The first question is, a you centric or, you know, if I'm the guest, the me centric question. And now I have to. That me centric story has to do double time. It has to talk about my background, but it also has to teach something. It has to add value first before I can talk about me. So I completely and 100% agree that, like, celebrity tends to be an exception because of the voyeuristic nature of being that famous, at least for a brief moment when they're talking to them. But for you or I, we need to find a way to, like, make this story reveal something that the audience can apply to their. To their work or their lives.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:27:58]:
Yeah, totally agree with you.
Jay Acunzo [00:28:04]:
One of the things that I've tried to do, I don't know how effective this is. I'll be completely candid. This is a bit of a new approach to telling my personal story that I wanted to run by you and see if we could almost retrofit it to your story and also talk about any of those pieces of that story that you might find needs some work. I'm happy to do that, too, but I've tried to come up with an acronym that helps us figure out the beats of that personal story so that we can reengage our brains a little bit again. And since it's about us and that's where people build credibility. Often, if you have an MBA, you might cite, you have an MBA. So the acronym I came up with is MBAs. So, Mbas.
Jay Acunzo [00:28:43]:
MBas. It stands for mission background, anecdote, summary. So I want to just define that really quick, get your reaction to it, because I actually picked up on a lot of it coming through in your story already. And maybe this is how we can more clearly analyze it, too. So, mission, you might say, instead of like, who are you? How'd you get here? And then you're chronologically starting at something which, oh, by the way, they don't care about. You start by saying, like, yeah, I mean, like, retroactively, I can make sense of how far I've come or how I got here with the mission I have today, which is I want to help people make things that matter to their careers, companies, and communities. Like, there's a lot of commodity forgettable content from a lot of people that have a lot of expertise, and they're getting drowned out by people with hype on the Internet. So I'm trying to help those people actually stand out through their stories and their substance, not stunts.
Jay Acunzo [00:29:34]:
And so that's mission. Right? And it's just like, oh, okay. Like, I'll perk up if I'm a listener. And then you go to background, which is what the thing usually looks like. Oh, you know, how did that, how did that start for me? Well, I wanted to be a sports journalist. I started doing all these internships in school and culminated with an internship at ESPN. I thought I was destined for those kinds of jobs where I would be a beat reporter and tell human interest pieces of athletes. I love those saccharine stories.
Jay Acunzo [00:29:57]:
And I did not get that job full time. But out of college, I got very lucky, etcetera, right? I got a job at Google and then this and then that. And you kind of give the background in brief. So, mission background anecdote, somewhere along your journey was this, like, inciting incident or a memory that maybe evokes what you're talking about today, and maybe you changed gears and wrote the next book. It wouldn't be the same anecdote, right? It'd be another one you pick. That's, like, illuminating what you're talking about in this moment. But I like to pull out one from when I quit Google or one from when I was working at a large company revered for their content but not so much for their substance or stories. There's a bunch I can pick from that will help me talk about the ideas I present to the world today.
Jay Acunzo [00:30:39]:
And as I hit that beat, I'll go a little deeper and give you that anecdote. And at the end, the s mission background anecdote, summary, and then just wrap it up with a rounded edge. That's why I say my mission is to help people make what matters, because a lot of times we're trying to market more, and I really want to help people matter more, because when your work matters more, you can hustle for attention less. Right. So that's practice. I don't want people thinking, whoa, that was like, I've done that a million times, and I even rushed through it for you. But those. That's the model I've come up with.
Jay Acunzo [00:31:11]:
Mission background anecdote, something within that background, and then summary to give people that aren't fluent storytellers. Like a handhold.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:31:19]:
Yeah. No, I love that. I think it's a great way to remember all the things that maybe need to be captured within that essential story that speak to both, like, your background and all those other things. So I think it's a great way to kind of remember.
Jay Acunzo [00:31:33]:
And it is training wheels. Right. Like, eventually that comes off and you just do what you did, which is just react, just be. But as I'm looking at your story, I'm like, oh, I recognize the student that you're talking about as a friend of mine, thinking very specifically of one friend, which is a great thing. Right. You're able to illustrate something universal by getting really specific. And my question for you is, have you ever tried giving it one step further towards the specific? Like, I remember this one student, let's call her sam, just to protect her identity. Have you ever made it even smaller and more narrow?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:32:08]:
You know, what's interesting is I haven't. And I think it's because with it typically being the first question, I know that we're doing that to get some establishing context of who I am and then get to the good stuff. I find myself almost with. While I'm doing it with a certain sense of ease and familiarity, I also feel a certain urgency, because I know that it feels like their preliminary, basic setup question so that we can now get going. So I find myself, quote, unquote, getting to it so that it's not maybe what I personally dread, which is like the seven minute intro, and I'm like, skip 30 seconds. Skip 30 seconds on my podcast. But I 100%, of course, see the value of putting a face on one of those aspects, whether it's as a teacher, what's a time a student brought an issue to me, or as a publicist when did this high achieving woman I was almost intimidated by, you know, broke the wall down and told me so I definitely see the value in it, for sure.
Jay Acunzo [00:33:10]:
Yeah. Even, like, you could bring out the detail of that woman's day, like, the face that you remember. Like, there's probably some vivid detail. What I was struck by was how much of my own experiences with people I was able to fill in the blanks with, which is, again, effective. Right. It's a good. Because you're relating to me without you having known what I went through. And I almost wonder, like, was there one step either within the students that you met or the high achieving professionals that you've met that you could put a detailer to? That even helps me feel it more.
Jay Acunzo [00:33:46]:
Right. Like, is it cold sweats? Is it sheepishness because you're embarrassed or. I don't know. And I don't want to prescribe either, because I don't know how you like to tell stories enough to be like, oh, it's, you know, do what a past guest of ours has done. Anne Handley, author of the book everybody writes, where she likes to bring out the descriptors a lot. You know, I asked her about her writing practice and how she gathers ideas. She describes a squirrel in her yard hunting for nuts. That's immediately how she naturally goes about it.
Jay Acunzo [00:34:15]:
So I don't know enough about you to say this, that, or the other thing, but I did find myself wondering, like, instead of having almost an avatar in my brain as you're telling the story, could I have, like, some details of the face emerge in not a literal sense, face or otherwise. Right. Yeah.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:34:30]:
Like, she had brown eyebrows.
Jay Acunzo [00:34:32]:
Right, right. That's like the. Oh, no, here we go.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:34:35]:
No, I totally get what you're saying. And, you know, my audience varies quite a bit. And so I guess that could determine which aspect I attached the anecdote to. You know, a couple weeks ago, I was, you know, I'm often hired by sororities to do their grand keynote for their annual convention. You know, so I'm very cool to a bunch of college age girls. So it might make sense to speak from a student aspect, those students, those young emerging adults and the issues they were facing at that time. But I also am hired by a lot of women's conferences, and I'm speaking to a room of business owners, so maybe they're, to your point, sharing an anecdote about a woman who had it all together. She's got the kids in the business, but I know her secret, and I know the secret is behind the scenes.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:35:16]:
Despite the number of social connections she's cultivated, she's deeply unsatisfied with them, or they're starting to feel largely performative. And so I totally see the value of based on who I'm talking to, carving out a specific scene and playing that for them, I think is a great addition.
Jay Acunzo [00:35:36]:
Yeah, there's a visual I have of you on a stage giving that answer and be like, and I'll never forget, I reach out to shake her hand, and her hand is trembling. That little woman.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:35:45]:
Yes.
Jay Acunzo [00:35:46]:
Detail like that is it somehow illuminates. It's like shining a flashlight. Yeah, you're shining it in one place, but there's a little bit more of a halo of light going on where it's like, oh, now I can picture the whole person just from that one detail, whether or not it's that one detail. Right. But it doesn't have to elongate the story. In other words, to your point earlier about, like, oh, I kind of want to not, you know, do a seven minute intro. Totally, totally get that. Have been on both sides of that, giving them and then regretting it and receiving them and then needing to figure out the edit.
Jay Acunzo [00:36:17]:
So, yes, I appreciate that sentiment. A million folds. But, yeah, just one little moment where you kind of pause a beat because you're, like, mentally take a Snapchat audience, and in doing so, you give us one detail because you were there and we weren't.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:36:31]:
That's really good. I think that would be, like, a perfect addition to that generic intro. I think it keeps me softened, to be honest. I know we're joking about having to be a machine, a robot. You're cranking it out. But I think it helps to keep the material tender to me because I never want to just operate from my head. I want to operate from my heart as well. So I think it helps to keep me softened in this work that I do.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:36:53]:
But also, I think it's a great way to, from the beginning, engage them even more.
Jay Acunzo [00:36:58]:
Right. I noticed in watching back a recent interview of mine, somebody gave an answer, and I didn't react sort of visually like I'm on camera. Very stoic. But you can hear me go, mm. And I was like, ooh, how do I get that? Like, how do I go on someone else's show and give an answer where the host is like. Like, what they were saying to me was like. Or what I was saying to that guest was, oh, wow, that hits home to me. Right.
Jay Acunzo [00:37:24]:
That resonates deeply with me. And that's the first beat of the whole MBA's approach. Again, this is unproven. So I want listeners to take this with a grain of salt because I've only used it a little bit, but, like, front loading the mission part so people immediately go, oh, yeah, this is so for me, not like, where is this going, I wonder? And I gotta get through three or four stops in Jay's career to get to the point. And I think for you, that comes around. It came late, but around the last six years, and then you mentioned shifting your work to focus on this a little bit more. And I actually found myself going, oh, tell me more about that. And I just wonder if that or a slight version of that could be front loaded.
Jay Acunzo [00:38:06]:
So I'm like, oh, that's compelling. Because you're not. Because you're what you're being presented with. And this is, to fellow interviewers, I hope we all realize this is a generic summary in the question itself of your specific genius. Cause you're not just an expert on friendship. You have some specific bent angle belief or premise within that, and the interviewer is not giving you that as an audience. So you're letting that ride a little bit until you get to the specific way you've come at friendship. Because even when I read the subtitle of your book, fighting for our friendships, the science and art of conflict and connection in women's relationships.
Jay Acunzo [00:38:48]:
So science and art, that's a more specific lens. Conflict and connection, even more so in this niche of women's relationships specifically. And a lot of interviewers I know will just let kind of the generic summary suffice. And then we, as the guest, kind of have to, like, without saying it, like, I just want to interject here. Like, yeah, I guess generically, I'm a friendship expert, but, like, this is my focus. For real. Okay, now here's my backstory. By the way, you can disagree with me, too.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:39:13]:
Yeah, I'm like, I welcome that as well. I hate that idea. Yeah, please do. I love that. Because, yeah, as from the standpoint of a person who is often in the audience listening to people talk, I do find that when we can provide that kind of roadmap, like, if you were getting in the car with some money, you're like, where are we going? You know? And they start by telling you where we're going and why it's gonna be so exciting. And then we start to get to the little points along the way as we're driving. It's helpful. You can kind of.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:39:38]:
Okay, I get what's going on here, where we're going, why this matters. And so I love the idea of kind of starting with this is, you know, my mission and here's why I have a sense of urgency around it. Here's what's going on. And here was the first moment of my career where I started to see how much this matters and bringing them back to the present day. So I totally see the value that would add.
Jay Acunzo [00:40:00]:
Yeah, you mentioned before, and I totally agree, these questions have like a technical use for the audience. Right. Which is to sort of get beyond the basic questions of like, who is this person? What do they do? Like, I need to place them in some kind of genre or industry niche to like, make sense of it and then move forward with this individual or this experience. And that's necessary. And I think you and I both agree a lot of that can happen in post with the interviewer setting it up ahead of the actual interview. But if you're put on the spot, I think about one of our earlier guests who, she designs business models for entrepreneurs. Her name is Michelle Warner and like, she's a business consultant. And that's, you know, get in line.
Jay Acunzo [00:40:36]:
You could be on a spreadsheet and everyone's evaluating you on price. And it's a race to the bottom because just saying I'm a business strategist or designer makes you a commodity. So her whole thing is she talks about sequence over strategy. Like, you don't need a strategy, you don't need a playbook. You need to know the right order in which to do things that'll reveal the strategy to you. So if she was asked, who are you? What do you do? I can see her saying, like, I'm a business strategist, or, hey, Michelle, you're a business strategist. How'd you get there? She's not going to let the generic business strategist tag stick to her long. She's going to replace it with, yeah, I'm a business strategist.
Jay Acunzo [00:41:10]:
I kind of have this belief which some see as radical, but I believe firmly as sequence over strategy. And then she explains that and then gets into her backstory of like, I went to this MBA program, in her case, a literal MBA program, and then did this job and that job and that job and the whole time I'm now listening to that, hunting for examples of sequence over strategy now that she revealed it to me. So I love the way she presents herself. Cause I think she is often shoved into a list of sameness by other interviewers. And it's hard. Like, it's hard cause you have a very short runtime. It's hard because you have a million things in your day, let alone that one interview. And so maybe by making it a little more visible to ourselves, it just makes it easier to prepare a practice.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:41:54]:
Yeah, that's great. Because another, it makes me also think about how, you know, to her point about needing to differentiate herself, because for some of us, we are working against people kind of assuming, oh, I know how this goes. And maybe even tuning out because we're like, oh, business strategist. I know for me, as a friendship coach, they're kind of like, wait, what? But still, you know, I have people who probably approach like, oh, here we go, another coach. All right, okay.
Jay Acunzo [00:42:14]:
Oh, that's.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:42:15]:
Or, you know, another coach. Or thinking like, oh, friendship. Okay, tell me how to make friends. You know, I've like, literally had that as a response at dinner parties, like, oh, you know, with a scoff. Oh, so you teach people to make friends. And so it's not until I start dropping maybe statistics or data now. It commands a certain respect. Now they're listening.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:42:36]:
But I sometimes get frustrated that it takes that long and that I'm dismissed from the beginning. So I appreciate the aspect of that example with the strategist. Who knows? People might shut me off because of these assumptions from the beginning or kind of like turn their listening ears off. So what are some things that I might anticipate them turning their ears off because of? And how do I kind of combat that? So that's a really interesting example.
Jay Acunzo [00:43:02]:
Yeah. And depending on the audience, like you mentioned, different audiences you speak to, if it's a business leaning or career focused crowd, how to win friends and influence people. I mean, that is just such a predominant concept in book by Dale Carnegie that people are gonna hear your friendship coast. Oh, so, like, so I can influence other people. And like, I don't know if you'd agree it's antithetical to what you're saying to the world, but it certainly doesn't feel connected to directly your message.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:43:27]:
I would agree. And that could even be a good opener as I think about it, because that's all about how to influence. But I'm talking about connections. And when the research is saying that quality connections is the number one thing that determines how long you live and how happy you are, I'm less concerned about making people like me or manipulating you into developing some kind of affinity for me. I want quality relationships because it's a life or death situation. And so that's where I see his book as totally helpful. 100%. But that's where the similarities between our work would end.
Jay Acunzo [00:44:00]:
Yeah, right. A line, I'm going to butcher the exact line, so maybe you can fill it in for me. But a line I really appreciated because I was like, that is found. That is something you were writing or speaking or thinking one day and found the right phrasing. Or it popped to mind. You're like, it's one of those instant things where you're like, I know this. I got this. And maybe inspired by the research where you said women's friendships run deeper than men's but are more fragile.
Jay Acunzo [00:44:24]:
Right. That little juxtaposition. I feel like those little turns of phrases are so important to our platforms because they're like, I have a friend. Tamsen Webster is her name. To give her credit where it's due. She calls those like, it's like space bags for your brain. You remember a visual or you remember a line, and there's a lot packed into it, so I can just remember that one thing, and out comes so much more. Do you have a rough sense for where that little turn of phrase came from? Because once you said it in the story, I was like, damn, that's good.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:44:54]:
Oh, interesting. I don't know. That's a great question. I guess just. I guess it, in a very concise way sums up the body of research that I focus on that highlights that our friendships are deeper. But. And so, yeah, maybe that's just, like, from the research and needing a concise way to sum up the heart, and it's pretty much the heart of the book that I wrote. Like, to answer that question, why are they deeper but they're dissolving at a faster rate than men's friendships? You know, it does make you kind of wonder.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:45:24]:
And so I guess I really have leaned into that.
Jay Acunzo [00:45:30]:
I think when we speak, there's a certain musicality to everybody, so there's a musicality to that, but it's also this nice way to add tension, that little carbon element of storytelling, to something very quick. It doesn't need to be a sweeping arc, you know, or if you did have a sweeping arc of a friendship, I think it would probably be two people, two women, who are clearly really deeply connected, but showcasing the fragility of that connection, perhaps. Right? Like, it's. It just speaks to. It's like a keyhole into a whole world, which I really, really appreciated. Are there other pieces to this where you mentioned ahead of time? Maybe there's ways we could improve this or make it specific or different things. Are there pieces of your explanation of who you are and how you got here that you want to go a little deeper on or change?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:46:19]:
I really like what you suggested about leading with the mission to help set from the beginning people's understanding of why this even matters. Like, why am I even here today listening to you talk for 25 minutes or whatever it is? So that is going to be, like, a key takeaway for me, because it's such a simple change, but I don't often do it, so I really appreciate that. And I also like what you've suggested about choosing one of these episodes from the story. We've got the teacher in the classroom. You've got the publicist now the friendship coach, taking one of these scenes according to the audience who's in front of me at the moment, and drawing out a scene of the woman in this particular landscape. I think those are gonna be two key takeaways that I focus on, because they're simple fixes, but I think will have such an impact to shift the story in that way.
Jay Acunzo [00:47:11]:
One of the things I very much appreciated was your ability to, I'll use a metaphor here. I feel like, really great stories or responses. Yours was a story that encompasses lots of stories. There's lots of stuff in there. So I think of, like, driving a car that you just somehow feel comfortable in, where you're like, there was a version of me that would just have to know the basics of the car. Like, where do I grip the wheels? You learn that. What do the pedals do? You learn that. You check your mirrors.
Jay Acunzo [00:47:35]:
It's very technical. Right. And I think that's a big hurdle for people to get over, is just, how do I say anything coherent? I guess I'll go to the backstory and bio chronologically when I'm asked a question. Right. That's, like, the technical. I'm familiar with the mechanics of the cardinal, but what I saw from you was there's so much in there, to your point, that you can, like, play with now. You can have fun and shift gears and drive anywhere and not think actively about how to drive. You can just focus on the destination or enjoying the journey there of, like, ratcheting up or ratcheting down certain moments of tension, bringing out little different anecdotes.
Jay Acunzo [00:48:11]:
And I think, like, the final flourish, if you want to call it. This is where my knowledge of cars breaks down, Danielle. This is like, I went down a path with you that I regret I should not have used the car metaphor, but we're going with it anyway. The spoiler, that's kind of a lame feature of a car. I don't know, let's say a higher octane fuel you could add to it. But I like electric cars. Go with me, listener. You're going to lose me more often than you like in the show.
Jay Acunzo [00:48:35]:
The last little piece, I think, could be, like, sticking the landing. That one powerful statement or rounded edge, I would call it, to leave the car metaphor aside for a minute, where it's like, ooh, that was tasty. That was really good. And so I wonder, like, if your background taught you anything heading into this book or if your book itself taught you anything. We've identified the problem, which is women's relationships run deeper, but they're more fragile. Is there, like, a final line of hope, which is equally as powerful to that, but a little more forward thinking instead of, or solution focus instead of problem focus?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:49:15]:
So this isn't as concise or punchy as that. They're deeper, but they're fragile. But I do like this idea of kind of ending with something that highlights the urgency and expansiveness of this work, because I like what you just said of if my backgrounds taught me anything, I like the idea now of saying, you know, so I was a high school teacher, blah, blah, blah, and then a publicist, blah, blah, blah, and now I leverage my background to study with. The research has to say, I like the idea of adding something like, and I gotta tell you, if my background and this journey has taught me anything, it's that having deep friendships with other women is about so much more than going to brunch. It really is a matter of our health and overall life satisfaction. You know, like, something like that.
Jay Acunzo [00:50:05]:
You know, something like that. Yeah, totally. Totally. It's probably. That's amazing, by the way. Cause you just came up with it on the spot. It's probably like there's a thread appearing to you somewhere, either in the book packaging itself or in your explanations. Like, I even think about fighting for our friendships, like, revisiting that.
Jay Acunzo [00:50:21]:
Like, if it's taught me anything, you know, it's so much more than, like, going to brunch, sending Instagram reels via DM to each other. Right. It's. Friendships are things that are worth fighting for, we'd all agree, but we actually have to learn how to start fighting for our friendships.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:50:37]:
Yeah, love that.
Jay Acunzo [00:50:39]:
And then the audience goes, oh, that's the name of the book, right? Cause we all love when they say them.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:50:44]:
The title in the movie.
Jay Acunzo [00:50:44]:
In the movie, right? Yes.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:50:47]:
Yes. I agree. I want them to have that aha moment. Yes.
Jay Acunzo [00:50:51]:
Yeah. So new. New ending to the story cemented, new friendship cemented between you and I. Perfect for the subject that you talk about. You give speeches, you write books, you host podcasts, you're out there publicly. You're on social media. You mention that as your practice. You also help other people do similar things and get their stories out there.
Jay Acunzo [00:51:11]:
If you could go back in time to somebody starting out yourself at a younger age and give them any little gem about what you've learned about the power of storytelling to that person, what would you say to them or to a prospective client or listener who's like, I really admire the way Danielle shows up, but I don't know how to do it or I couldn't possibly tell my own story?
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:51:33]:
That's a great question. I think for somebody starting out who's realizing the importance of storytelling but doesn't know where to start, I would encourage them to tell their story often to lots of different people, and there are cool ways to do it. You can write and journal and all those, but I think just experimenting and giving yourself as many opportunities as possible to tell it to the cashier at Target. Like, he's got to finish the shift. He's got to finish reading your items up. He's not going anywhere. So captive audience or a neighbor or when you get together for the family barbecue, like, whatever it is, just practicing, watching people's reactions in real time, do their eyes tend to glaze over, or is there a part where you find them saying, wait, hold on a second. You were in India for six years.
Danielle Bayard Jackson [00:52:18]:
You know, what's the part that people are responding to and just kind of playing around with it? People who you tell it to who are familiar with you, people who don't know you and being comfortable even asking for feedback from friends and not necessarily, you know, asking them to have a critics lens, but, you know, they know you, so maybe they can help you see stuff you can't. Maybe they can say, girl, why are you not highlighting that aspect of your story that's so interesting, but you never mention it, you know, which our friends are supposed to do. They help bring out the best when we just can't see it. So I think the best way to get better at storytelling or telling that one essential story is to. To tell it often and to allow yourself to be vulnerable enough to ask people who know you, what do you think? When I share it, how does it make you feel? Is there anything I'm overlooking. And hopefully they can be the eyes for your blind spot in that way.